Episode 82: Pursuing Parenting ADHD Children with Avigail Gimpel

🎶 Podcast Intro: Welcome to the pursuing uncomfortable podcast, where we give you the encouragement you need to lean into the uncomfortable stuff life puts in front of you, so you can love your life. If you are ready to overcome all the yuck that keeps you up at night, you're in the right place. I am your host, Melissa Ebken let's get going. 🎶

🎶 Episode Intro:  Avigail Gimpel is a mother of six amazing kids with ADHD. She's married to a husband with ADHD and she's a special education teacher focusing on kids with ADHD. All of this experience and expertise has led her to develop a three-pronged approach to managing the symptoms and to helping parents navigate this often bumpy road.

Let's welcome Avigail and all of her experience and all of her tips to this episode of the Pursuing Uncomfortable podcast. 🎶

Episode: 
Melissa Ebken  0:02  
Avigail, welcome to the Pursuing Uncomfortable Podcast. How are you today?

Avigail Gimpel  0:08  
I'm fantastic. Melissa, thank you so much for having me here. 

Melissa Ebken  0:13  
It's my pleasure. And thank you for taking time out today. You're joining us all the way from Israel. I know it's Israeli Independence Day as we record this today. So thank you for taking time to be with us and talk to us.

Avigail Gimpel  0:28  
Oh, my God, it's my pleasure. We've just been eating all day long as this is the way we Jews like to celebrate. So it's nice to take an hour off before I'm sure I'm gonna have to go right back to it. So I actually need to thank you.

Melissa Ebken  0:42  
Absolutely. It's a mitzvah, I believe.

Avigail Gimpel  0:45  
It's a mitzvah. You're amazing.

Melissa Ebken  0:50  
Thanks. I'm gonna need that on a letterhead though, that I can spread around and share with others if you don't mind. We'll take care of that later.

Avigail Gimpel  0:57  
Absolutely. You got it.

Melissa Ebken  0:59  
I have a girl, you do a lot of important work. And you've been doing it for many years. Can you tell us a little bit about what you do?

Avigail Gimpel  1:07  
Sure, with pleasure. My most important work is being a mom of six amazing kids who keep me on my toes. I always said I have six PhDs, because no two children are alike. And they each train me from the very first day and have been raising me successfully, I think. But so much for that, I'm a special education teacher. And I my focus has been ADHD for a lot, a lot of years, first in the classroom. And funny story is that I actually met my husband, while I was developing programs for ADHD in the classroom, because I was getting a lot of guidance and these amazing kids with the curiosity and energy and wanted to talk about everything, except for what I was teaching them, of course, and that is that I'm so drawn to their amazing energy and I met my husband right there and he has the very same energy. So it was probably why it was a quick you know, and a quick temple wood because it was I was surrounded by kids just like him. And most of our kids are diagnosed with ADHD. So besides, we're doing a lot of work in the classroom, I also took a really deep dive to figure out how to raise my own children, and really give them a great educational and emotional childhood and now into adults that I've got two kids in three kids in their 20s At this point, which is remarkable and strange. And I so I've been working on that. And I've been able to to author two books out, which is very exciting. It's like kid number seven and eight, basically, but they don't talk back. So it's a little bit easier than that. And, and, and I also teach in a wonderful college here in Israel, Teachers College, which is exciting to me, because, you know, you really can have much more of a return influence if you go to the teachers than if you're going to individual people with with this program. And it's been very, very helpful to to children and families all over the world.

Melissa Ebken  3:16  
Wow, so what do you do in all your spare time?

Avigail Gimpel  3:18  
Ha, seriously. I make meat.

Melissa Ebken  3:20  
We need to move closer together, I believe. Yes. Now, when we talk about ADHD, that's a diagnosis that many share here in the United States. And there are a lot of parents who have children with ADHD, who don't have that themselves and don't know how to communicate well or interact with their kids. What are some guidelines and helpful suggestions that you can share with us about that? 

Avigail Gimpel  3:54  
There's ADHD walking in the door this second because he forgot that I was in an interview. Anyhow. What. So the first thing I say to parents, first of all, I myself, do not necessarily have ADHD, since it's just now, a friend was asking, what do you do when you're meeting with people because I also have a private clinic. And I have my kids on the other side of the door, because my office is in my home. And she says, well, how do you manage balancing how you're speaking with people and the noise outside? And I say, well, I just focus on the people in front of me, because I'm the only one in my house who can do that. So the first thing I want to say to parents is calm down. The diagnosis you've got of ADHD is not is only significant in that it's descriptive. It's telling you what some outward symptoms a teacher or practitioner or doctor has seen. That doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with your child. Your child is probably very healthy. And what's going on is that in most cases is a clash between your healthy child and their environment. That doesn't mean that you're to blame. That doesn't mean that you caused it. And that's really important that we all know because parents really put their heart and soul into raising their children. And we sacrifice a lot of free time, and cleanliness and organization and all the other things and great you know, it's wonderful for us, it's it really is a gift. But we were doing the best we can. So I'm not saying feel guilty that your child has these symptoms, but I am saying that the environment is very much what is going to cause a lot of these symptoms. So for example, you can have a child who's has physiological symptoms like rashes, autoimmunity, allergies, sleep issues, things like that. This whole list of that things, and you can check that out on my website. But the, when I see if there's a lot physiological issue, along with ADHD symptoms, I'm gonna go directly to the gut, because your child is responding poorly to the food that's attempting to nourish him, or her. And we also have a screen addictions or other kinds of addictions, we have trauma and abuse. And we have an instant gratification personality, which is a healthy personality, but doesn't really do very well in the classroom, because they want the here are now a novel and interesting. And there's very little that in the classroom, as we all know, because we've been through the classroom, and I'm so grateful that I'm done. Because it was torture. So I so there's a lot going on that what I say to parents is, stay calm and take a journey of curiosity to find out what's going on with your child. Because saying that the child has ADHD, and that's the problem is circular thinking. Because you're saying your child has the problem of not being able to focus and sit down and do their homework, which is what you told the doctor to begin with. So they're not really adding very much and what you need to say then is okay. Thank you for that observation. And now, why? Why is this going on? And what's going on to your child? Be kind and be curious, and you're gonna find the reason your child's struggling.

Melissa Ebken  8:00  
Thank you for that. That's a big step. You know, I have a theory that's unsubstantiated, because I've not gathered any evidence to support it, I've only observed and theorized about it, nonetheless, that every personality or every characteristic that is somehow different from the expected. So if it's not mainstream, you know, I don't like to use labels to describe that other than not the usual usual way of doing things, that there almost always accompanies that a unique gift present, and available to that personality that isn't available to others who may be more mainstream or expected in their behaviors. Would you say that that shows up in those with ADHD?

Avigail Gimpel  8:54  
Oh, yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. It's a very astute observation. And if we look at a lot of people with ADHD, we see much more sensitivity. And that also comes with a lot of creativity. So I'm amazed by the creativity that some of most of my kids have, actually. And I look at them and I say, like, I don't have that, you know, I'm a little type A, I'm just kind of organized. I get up in the morning and go through my day in a very, you know, orderly sort of way and but they they might be all over the place. But you know, when you want them to create produce something creative, think out of the box, they are the people you want to call upon, and they're brilliant at it. And a lot of times we see that it's the artists class, that are the ones that we're medicating. And because they're not fitting into the box, but they're not meant to be in a box. If we put everybody in a box, we wouldn't have art. We wouldn't have the beauty and the culture and and the writing that is available to us that we so appreciate. Every single one of those people that produce that level of beauty and art are people that we would have given a pill to, at some point because they weren't sitting nicely in the classroom. And what else I see is that, I know that wasn't a proper English sentence. But I, in addition, I see that when certainly when I take my kids out on a hike, which we do very often, and I highly highly recommend it to all parents, kids with ADHD symptoms, is get out in nature, don't stay in the house, take those devices out of your kids hands, and you will see they'll come alive. My kids notice everything, they don't miss it detail. And you know, we'll go out on a hike. And they'll they'll trip upon a mullberry tree, and then they're up in the tree in three seconds, one takes his shirt off, they're using it to shake the tree to gather the berries and, and they're making very juice out of it. It's unbelievable. And and the kids that are studious, good for them, they also have a very important place in the world. We need accountants too, but we need the artists, we need the accountants, we need the scientists, we need the entrepreneurs, we need them all working together. And when we take one class out and we say, that's the problematic class, we're doing a disservice not just to those kids, but to us as well.

Melissa Ebken  11:24  
Thank you for that. That's a beautiful way of framing this whole thing. And we need if we have learned anything at all throughout the experience of the pandemic, it's that we need all the voices. Amen. You can think creatively. Quickly. When trouble arises.

Avigail Gimpel  11:46  
Yes, yes. And we need more of those. You and I can pray together, that maybe even more people jump on that out of the box thinking bandwagon and and we do less than that follow orders thing in the future perhaps. 

Melissa Ebken  12:06  
Okay, so I'm a parent, I'm not, I'm speaking hypothetically, I'm a parent with a child that I'm struggling to understand and relate to with these ADHD symptoms. And we have the diagnosis. And we're working with our school to try to make an envro an environment that is that works for the other kids in the classroom for the teacher and for my child. What can I do as a parent to facilitate that process for my kid, for the teacher, for the other students?

Avigail Gimpel  12:44  
That's an enormous question. And I'll see what I can do to give it justice, in the two minutes that are allotted to answer that, okay, so. And so there is a there's that three pronged plan that I work with. And this is generalized, because keep in mind that if your child's the cause of your child's ADHD symptoms is trauma or abuse, this three prong system is not going to work because you have to go straight to emotional intervention, and you can't skip it, and no medication is going to make that go away. So that's very important to understand. But if we're talking about most kids who the cause of their ADHD symptoms, is probably more of an instant gratification personality, then the three pronged plan goes like this. You start with yourself, it's called the first part is communication. And communication is first checking yourself communication with yourself, meaning what's triggering you, because our children with ADHD symptoms, they need our attention, and they need it strong. So if we're willing to yell at them, and be triggered by them, they're gonna make sure that we're yelling at them and being triggered by them all day, every day. And they're the leaders, were the followers, and it's a disaster. So therefore, the first thing we have to figure out is what's triggering us so that we can strengthen ourselves. We have to be kind to ourselves, in order to raise compassionate kind children and to have that beautiful relationship. So figure out what's going on. So for me a trigger was a, you know, crazy mess. You know, every everything, you know, all my kids have against sober and just like the pile up of toys and things like that. And I found myself then yelling and getting hysterical because I couldn't stand the chaos. I have, like, from my own childhood, I have an allergy to chaos. So I and even if it wouldn't look chaotic to you, to me, I was already on the verge of hysteria. So I had to be kind to myself and work that through, but our children trigger us, our students trigger us, and we have to figure out why. I had one clients, interesting, where she was very forced to have her son and even a little bit afraid of her son. And that's, that's fairly typical for parents to be scared of their children. And that's gotta go because our children need leaders, and they need a parent, not a friend. So we cannot be scared of our children because we have to be the strong voice in their lives that make them feel safe and protected. But she was a little bit afraid of her child, because her child's reminded her of her very aggressive brother. He was very similar and the way he looked the way he sounded, and that's what happens with families. But it wasn't her brother. And she couldn't, anytime her child would say something critical, and my God, our children, say critical things to us that they tear our hearts out, so you have to be able to be the adult to be able to handle it. And also to say, you can't talk that way to mom. But you can't say that if you're crumpled up on the floor with your thumb in your mouth because you're so hurt because your brother just flacked you, but as your little child. So that process has to happen in order for us to get to the part one, which is really the communication, which is giving our children tremendous amounts of positive feedback. Once we're able to bring down the negative feedback, and just ramp up dramatically the positive feedback, then our children will learn that the attention they're getting from mom and dad and from the teacher is going to be the positive attention. So we're very gently and kindly teaching them that they deserve attention. And we're gonna give it to them. And we're gonna give it to them in the most generous way. But when they're doing the right thing, and that's step one, step two is discipline. And, and punishment. Punishment is a word that makes people very uncomfortable. The only reason I use it is because I like clarity, you don't have to call it punishment, you can call it a correction, you can call it a consequence, but not an actual consequence. Because it's not some, you know, power from outside coming in to punish your child, it's you choosing again, strong parents raise strong children. So you're choosing to stop your child from what they're doing, and redirect them. So punishment, the whole system of discipline is loving, it's kind of disrespectful to the child, and it must be there. And I know that there's a whole wave of, of parenting that recommends that you don't do any punishment, you only communicate, those kids will end up very miserable. And, and spoiled and entitled, and it doesn't, it doesn't look pretty in the next generation. And the third and, and really something that the teachers can do very effectively actually I have a full chapter in my book, The Bridge Between Home and School, which is creating habits because a kid who is a here and now novelty seeking child, is a child who doesn't like to follow through, and the only way we get good at thing is by follow through. So I've been married 25 years, we just, we just had our 25th anniversary. And, and I think to myself now, you know, I live in the kitchen. I'm really constantly making meals, there's a lot of hungry people around here. And I remember as as a newlywed, I couldn't boil pasta. Now I put on an interesting podcast and the meals done in a minute, no big deal. I've barely notice that I'm cooking. That's because I've been sticking at it. But if I needed a novelty and I needed to create a new gourmet meal every night, and then I gave up because I couldn't create that gourmet meal, I'd never have created the habit. And that's what kids with with with instant gratification personalities winds up doing. They don't create habits because they jump from thing to thing, because it starts to get boring halfway through. So they have this great science experiment idea. And they're really excited about it. But then after two days, now they have to sit and write about it and measure things. Forget it, they're out. So we have to say your personality is fantastic. And your ideas are brilliant. Now we have to teach you to follow through just like a kid who's very studious, doesn't do out of the box thinking very well. So the studious part is in place. But you need to learn to think out of the box, you need to learn creativity. So we would work with that child and creativity. And with our child, we're going to work on a behavior system that trains them and teaches them to create habits of routine the waking up in the morning, doing homework, going to bed at night, getting along with classmates, siblings, any of these things can be taught. And we always have to start from where the child is holding now. What are what's his skill set now and then build from there. So with those three pronged plan, kids do very, very well. Thank you for that. Was that two and a half minutes?

Melissa Ebken  19:59  
I wasn't keeping time. Alright, let's start over and I'll keep talking this time. As a pastor, I have had families approach me and say, we'd love to come to church and bring our kids but our kids have ADHD, and we don't want to be disruptive. How can we prepare our places of gathering, whether it's a church with worship, or a club that we're a part of, and the adults that attend and other kids that attend? How can we be welcoming to folks, kids or adults?

Avigail Gimpel  20:31  
Excellent. First of all, the kids must be there. Yeah. What. How do we pass tradition onto the children if we don't bring them to our places of worship? So we that's what we're getting, you tell the parents bring the children. Now, what do we do with the children? They have to be engaged. And anyway, frankly, if it's not an engaging program, or you know, ceremony, whatever, what do we call it? Service, is the word. So I'm thinking in Hebrew now. I just jumped into Hebrew for a second because you, I just went into the synagogue for a second. So the service, if it's not engaging, the adults are also kind of shifting in their seats. What I recommend highly recommend is that kids get a front and center position. So I know that in the synagogue, there's a lot of things that kids can do. They could, they can hold a, you know, the holy books or the Torah, they can, they can open the ark, they can, they can bring things around, they can, there's a lot that they can do, they can even go up and read things out loud. So there's a lot that children could do, they can sing, they could lead song. And, and I'd see that when the children are involved, and they know that it's going to be their turn next, and we have a signup sheet in our synagogue where kids know that they're thet're next. Next weekend, they're going to be the ones leading that the song. And, and they're excited to come for that. So we have a certain amount, first of all, creating jobs for kids in the service is a great idea. And there are many jobs that could be created in any religion, that the kids could get involved in, tolerating a bit of noise. They'll say, Shh don't do that. Don't do that. It's okay. Everybody hears. Nothing's gonna happen if there's a little bit of noise. And and then what I would say is halfway through, once they've been involved enough, let's say 45 minutes. Really, that's enough. I don't know how long the service is for you. But then what you would have a children's group where they go out and have an older kid leading some kind of game or something meaningful so that the kids can carry on participating that allowing the adults to actually focus concentrate, and get centered in their prayers.

Melissa Ebken  22:56  
Thank you for that. And kids with ADHD grew up to be adults with ADHD. And we work with them. We are neighbors with them, we volunteer with them and visit with them. How can we be better colleagues and friends to our adult ADHD folks?

Avigail Gimpel  23:16  
Well, not all of them grow up to be ADHD, by the way. A lot of that a lot of kids with ADHD grow out of their symptoms if they have the proper kind of guidance. And you see that a lot. Yeah. But I would say that there are, no I don't think that we need to kind of tolerate our colleagues and friends with ADHD, we need to, wor they're they're they're healthy and interesting, like we are, and we need to appreciate what they bring to the table as well as what we bring to the table. I you know listen, I could spot the ADHD adults from a mile away often. I bet you can. And they're often very, very, you know that they're the ones like shouting out at just just now I was at a party and someone was was giving a speech, very meaningful speech. And then someone from the audience like, shouted something totally tatcless out and got kicked by his wife. So there it is. But I think that being being clear on your own needs and your own boundaries is very important. And just just having open communication is great. Also sense of humor is really helpful. Because when you become close with me, you saw that husband tried, you know, crawled in here and tried to get his I realized afterwards his computer is here. You know, it's funny, it's funny, it's either annoying or it's funny and you could choose for it to be funny, and that's the best way to go at it. Try not to be insulted immediately because there is a level of tacklessness that that is part of the ADHD package. And knowing that, that the person is not saying it to insult you, but rather because they unfortunately did not stop to think before they said something and it came right out and, and just pushing back in a gentle way and saying, hey, that then hurt my feelings. Giving guidance. Another thing that's very useful is being a bun double to a friend with with the ADHD. I know, people with ADHD often have a hard time doing things on their own. Not that they're incapable, they're they're quite capable, and, and often more intelligent than the rest of the population. But they, they just don't like being alone. They're very social. And just, you know, sitting with a friend with a coffee and your hands while they straighten up their kitchen, or they get something done is a really kind nice thing to do. And the both of you would enjoy yourselves. And yeah, that's, that's a nice little tip that I actually learned from my daughter. 

Melissa Ebken  25:59  
Nice, you know, all of these things you described, having good boundaries, knowing who we are and who we're not, and having a sense of humor being present and responsible for ourselves. That just kind of sounds like being an emotionally mature person. 

Avigail Gimpel  26:14  
Oh, yes. Yes, that's right. That's exactly be, an emotionally mature person and have boundaries. And you shot a very good chance of getting along with 99% of people around you.

Melissa Ebken  26:30  
Love it. Tell us a little bit about your books.

Avigail Gimpel  26:34  
Okay, so my first book, which is called Hyper Healing, I actually don't have it here on my desk. That's a deeper version of it. And available on Amazon. So the first book is a full program for parents of kids with with ADHD, I'm speaking directly to parents in this book. That's my point of view. And basically, what it does is it goes through the different causes of ADHD symptoms, and helps parents start from the very beginning, self care, first for the parent. And I spent a good bit of time on that, because we really need that. You cannot raise healthy kids if you're not feeling confident and secure in your role. So that that's the beginning of that. And then I go through all the different causes of ADHD symptoms, starting with instant gratification personality. And then we go to and all of the different things we can do for that, including the discipline, school discipline, the bridge between home and school, and then we move it to the different causes of ADHD, a gut dysbiosis, our lack of nature and exercise, sleep disorders, trauma and abuse, pornography addiction, screen addiction, and many more. And for each of those causes, I offer a an intervention. So essentially, it's a coaching program, in book form. And the reason I wrote it, even though writing is not my favorite medium, it was great, it was fine. It was good process. But it wasn't, that's not my natural go to is because if people parents would turn to me, and I'd be happy to help them, but so few parents can afford ongoing coaching for their children. They're just quite, they're just making it and they everybody deserves to not only get the truth about what's going on for their child, and to know that their child is healthy, but also shove in their hands a program that they can use. And I felt like that that will be my contribution to humanity. And you can get your full program for the price of a book. And so that's that's book number one. The second book, which is called Hyper Healing; Show Me the Science, was really where I began. Because right when my kids were diagnosed, I immediately and I got that the prescription and I runway started filling that prescription and popping the pills. But while I was doing it, it wasn't feeling right for me, and we really have to trust our gut, all of us. And every area, we need to listen to ourselves. And I and the medication first of all, was not solving the problem second of all, my kids were miserable on it. And they were getting bullied because they were so passive, they couldn't defend themselves. It was a mess. And they were losing weight, what who need to kid losing weight, right? And they, they're sitting inside at recess instead of running outside with the rest of the kids. So I'm defeating every single purpose by giving them these pills. So I took I really started examining the research on ADHD and I discovered something fascinating that ADHD actually is not a neurological disorder. It's the they still haven't found it. And they started looking for in 1978. So I'm going to do all the studies from 1978 to 2017 where is which is the last very big study. I'm slowly getting outdated. But that's the last really, really big study with 1000s of kids all the way through that keeps saying neurological, neurological, dopamine, five areas of the brain are affected. But then you still don't have the hard science on it, believe it or not, even in this last study, it's only 5% of kids 5% Of all the ADHD kids, that they see something going on in the brain that maybe is pathological. Maybe no. It may be caused by the pills they're taking, maybe not. We don't know. But the conclusion of that study is, we found it. We know that this is a brain disorder. And I'm like, no, you didn't. You didn't find it. And therefore, the book, book two is my informed consent book, I want every parent to be able to make the right decision. And you might decide to medicate, and that'll be fine, if that's the right decision for your child. I'm not anti the medication. I'm medicating three of my children. And now now none of them are but that was a decision we made later on. But I want you to, to have the knowledge, knowledge, because the knowledge really is power. And we as parents, we go into the doctor's office, and we get bullied, because we don't know anything. And the doctor is so authoritative. Well, guess what? The doctors didn't read the studies. They don't even have time to do that. So we have to be educated. It's a small book, it's unintimidating, but it gives you all the information you need in order to have a really educated conversation with your doctor, with the teachers, and with your spouse and the new child and making good decision there.

Melissa Ebken  31:44  
And the links to both of these books are in the show notes. So I encourage you to click on the links in the show notes and check these books out. Get them for yourself, for your friends that are teachers or for someone else who may be in this struggle. As we close today, Avigail, is there anything you would like to leave us with?

Avigail Gimpel  32:04  
Well, I would like to thank you, because you're a real inspiration. And you really touch people's hearts. And the fact that you're even have a podcast and invite people to speak and, and introduce your audience to different perspectives is really remarkable. And you're doing God's work. So congratulations to you and keep at it. And to all parents out there, we do have the really the hardest job. But it's the most gratifying job. It really is. And that even though my sister in law was was spending some time with with a group of women, and some of them had children, some of them didn't. And she comes back from that. And she says, you know, the women who have children look 10 years older than the women who don't have children. I'm like, Yeah, ah, of course we do. Only 10? Like, like, that's obvious, but it is the best the best decision you've ever made. I once heard someone say, then making a decision to have a child is like putting a tattoo on your face. It really is. So we've got some tattoos on our faces. It's you know, it's that big commitment, I don't know if a  tattoo on the face in such a big commitment anymore. But it's that that the point is that it's it's a very hard job. But it's a remarkable job. And it takes time, it's a process. You're supposed to make mistakes. It's baked into the cake. So at the end of the day, congratulate yourself on what you've done well, because we've done a lot good things and be okay with the mistakes you made. And just take one step in the right direction tomorrow. Because the goal of parenting and the goal of raising healthy children is to always be on a journey. And we can do that. Never try to be perfect because you will fail. I have never met a perfect parent. And I don't think ever will. Maybe Gods. a God. God is perfect not mayby. God's perfect and we're fallible. Our only goal is to take one step forward every day and we can do that. 

Melissa Ebken  34:19  
Thank you Avigail.

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